[theaf]

Hi,


What do you guys do when you get a chargeback for no valid reason but the bank will not side with you because we do not have a signed delivery receipt. The recipient admits they received the gift. The sender just got ticked because we could not tell him when something was going to be delivered at the exact time he called ie Sunday 5:00 am our time. He called us 10 times over a small order AFTER it had shipped to tell us the day he wanted it delivered. There was nothing we could do at that point partially because we were shipping into Canada. When the package was not delivered by 9:00 am that day he filed a chargeback even though it was delivered later the same day and the bank is letting him get away with it. We sent the bank a shipping tracking document that reflected that the item was delivered but here is what they said:

We acknowledge receiving your invoice, however, we are unable to reverse this chargeback due to the fact that signed POD was not provided. This was a Canadian order. We provided the documentation from UPS indicating that the package was delivered but it does not provide the signature.

Here are my questions:
Is there any legal reason that I can not do the following:

1. Call the sender and tell him that I am filing a theft report against both he and the recipient to whom he sent the gift.
2. Call the recipient's parent who has acknowledged receipt of the gift by telephone to me (I called every day for days to find out when the gift was delivered so I could report back to the sender per his constant request) and give them a chance to make the payment and they do not make the payment file a theft report against them in this case it is a child.

The chargeback claims that the item was not received which is a lie. I know this sounds harsh but we can not afford to take a hit when we performed per the terms of our website. If I get a a letter from the recipient verifying they received the gift can I refile on the chargeback? In other words once they have said no can I still fight their determination.

I know what I would do if the credit card was stolen. I would file a theft report against the recipient. I am just not sure in this case if that is something I can legally do. How would you proceed?
Thanks for any suggestions you may have.
Teddy

[divesports]

Well........the risk of online retail.

It is my experience that, regardless of the reason, if a customer files a chargeback request, it is almost not worth the effort of time and trouble to fight it. In the past 5 years, we have had about 12 of them. In EVERY case, we provided the documentation, adequate descriptions of the events, copies of emails....everything that was asked of us. The number of chargeback we had reversed? 0! Just a risk we accept.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com

[Matt]

Originally Posted by divesports

Well........the risk of online retail.

It is my experience that, regardless of the reason, if a customer files a chargeback request, it is almost not worth the effort of time and trouble to fight it. In the past 5 years, we have had about 12 of them. In EVERY case, we provided the documentation, adequate descriptions of the events, copies of emails....everything that was asked of us. The number of chargeback we had reversed? 0! Just a risk we accept.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com

I agree with your statement 100%. For the person who started this thread, send the customer to a collections agency. I think they will reconsider not paying you after their credit takes a hit.

[divesports]

The chargeback system for credit cards is the most unfair business system I have ever seen. I stay fairly steamed about this whole process, and it get even worse when I hear the credit card companies advertising how THEY protect consumers against fraud. It is the MERCHANTS who provide the protection. If a consumer claims fraud, we give them the money back because the credit card company takes it!

About three years ago, I made a multi-thousand dollar sale to a customer who I had talked with several times over the phone. When the merchandise arrived, he phoned and emailed me to let me know it arrived. After he used it the first time, he again phoned to say how satisfied he was. Unfortunately, when his credit card bill arrived, he didn't recognize my business name, so he called and disputed the charge. He then left the country for a 9 week extended vacation. The credit card company took the money, refused all of my evidence that the customer got the merchandise. I had to wait until the customer came back in the country and called the bank to acknowledge that he in fact got the stuff and was satisfied. It then took me 22 WEEKS to get the money back!

So, I guess I actually have had one reversed. Oh well.

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com

[reichard]

Perhaps little can be done at this point.

Bear in mind though, that very few deliveries ever get a *signed* proof of delivery. For such, you would need to ship ups/fedex using the "Adult Signature Required" as well as NO INDIRECT.

Also, much to my horror, US Mail (even Express Mail) will follow a mail forward to US and destinations abroad. So if your AVS matches, and you ship to that address via US Mail, it is possible that a mail forward is on file to, say, Thailand. And the Credit Card was stolen. Happened to me last year. USPS basically told me to go pound sand.

As far as international e-commerce is concerned, never ship to an address other than the AVS bill-to. Shipping via USPS is exceptionally risky due to lack of real tracking and address forwarding.

[rgacom120]

I've only had this happen once and I showed proof that it had shipped etc and they reversed it although they ate the charge....people that try to screw small business should be put to sleep.

[drhall]

Keep fighting it. We have fought a handful of them and always won. Also, let the customer know that you will be sending him to collections for his fraudulent actions... Maybe they will withdraw their complaint..

[kitty]

This may be a little harsh to post on your site but it's something to consider. I am copying and pasting from a website I found. A little long but worth the read:

Dispute Policy

Most people are honest, and do not attempt to dispute valid charges billed to their credit cards. The dispute policy below only applies when we determine that a disputed charge is from a valid purchase. Please note that trying to deny a valid charge through your bank or credit card company is credit card fraud, and is a felony which may be punishable by jail.
Our Dispute Policy

IF YOU TRY TO DISPUTE OR DENY A VALID CHARGE, your credit card details along with your name and address will immediately be added to an International Fraud database. This fraud database is shared by hundreds of thousands of merchants on the Internet, both large and small, both adult and non adult, to minimize further fraud. You will not be able to use your credit card to purchase goods or services from any of these merchants in the future.

IF YOU TRY TO DISPUTE OR DENY A VALID CHARGE, you will be sent an invoice for the disputed amount by regular postal mail. Copies will also be sent to your bank and credit card company. This invoice will include the following information:

* The name of the site you paid to make a purchase
* Your IP address verification at the time you made the purchase
* Your original billing receipt with AVS and CVV2 match information
* The date and time of your purchase
* Tracking information
* Delivery Tracer
* The original charge plus a $35.00 dispute processing fee.

If you do not pay this invoice within 30 days, a second invoice will be sent with late fees included. If the second invoice is not paid within 30 days, the charge(s) will be forwarded to one of the 17 debt collection agencies which we work with in all five continents. We will also file all documentation with the authorities in your city/town and with the IFCC (a division of the FBI who investigates white collar and internet crimes). Lastly, WE DO PROSECUTE TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW!

Some companies say they will do the above; we actually follow through.

To avoid any of the outcomes above, we encourage you to contact us first for any problems with your purchase. We have an excellent track record in resolving problems and an even better record in resolving fraudulent disputes!

[theaf]

Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for the response. I just wanted to make sure I could file a theft report, turn them over to collections and so on when it was chargeback versus a stolen card. It sounds like as long as I can prove that we performed then I can go for it.

Thanks,
Teddy